Posted on May 19, 2009
On Tuesday, May 19th Derek Webb launched a marketing campaign for his new album Stockholm Syndrome which is by far one of the most creative ways of releasing an album I’ve ever seen. (It’s kind of like a svanger hunt with the feel of the TV show Lost.)
If anyone is interested in following along, I’ll be tracking developments in the comments section as they come in and posting tunes here as they’re made available.
[...] Posted in Christian Music tagged Derek Webb, Shane Bertou, Stockholm Syndrome at 4:47 pm by christianmusicreview Shane Bertou is doing a great job of keeping everyone updated on Derek Webb’s most interesting release of the Stockholm Syndrome. If you are interested in hunting down the clues (and want to do it the easy way), see http://shanebertou.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/stockholm-syndrome-marketing-as-performance-art/. [...]
[...] This other dude has posted two tracks off the new Derek Webb album. [...]
[...] solving adventure across the US and the web. If you want to read more on that you can read it here, if you want to get the nitty gritty on it you can do it [...]
[...] Company has been incredible. They dreamed up a multi-state hunt reminiscent of Derek Webb‘s Stockholm Syndrome release that combined obscure clues with geocaching. While I was out of state for my own signings [...]
Shane Bertou
May 19, 2009
After a cryptic email with almost no pertinent details whatsoever landed in the inboxes of Derek Webb fans last week there has been a ton of speculation as to just what exactly the singer has up his sleeve regarding the release of his upcoming album Stockholm Syndrome.
Yesterday afternoon Webb announced on his Twitter page that everything he’d been cooking up was about to begin, and that we should expect developments first thing this morning. Well, there have been some. But still nothing tangible. And what’s out there only adds to the intrigue.
It’s become pretty clear that this is an elaborate marketing device concocted by Team Webb. I have no reason to doubt that the alleged controversy between he and his label does in fact exist. I also think it’s given him a tremendous opportunity to generate a huge amount of chatter around the album. (And my suspicion is that the controversy itself is likely by design.)
In the comments of this post I will follow this campaign (that’s what I’m calling it). I’ll try to stay up to date with things as they develop.
And as a marketing guy I am loving this whole thing. Webb’s an artist that I have a tremendous amount of respect for. He’s also a brilliant marketer of his music. This campaign is really creative in that it’s almost as much a performance art piece as it is a clever way to advertise his new record. Andy Kaufman, eat your heart out. I’m hooked.
Louisa
June 10, 2009
you referenced Andy Kaufman
in a post about Derek Webb
i think i love you
Shane Bertou
May 19, 2009
The first thing I did this morning was go to Derek’s web site.
http://www.derekwebb.com
There’s an announcement there which states that due to the controversy Webb’s site isn’t available currently. There’s two emails posted that (sort of) explain everything. The second states that basically Derek is trying to subvert the whole label issue and will be going off line for a while. Fans are directed to a new Twitter page for updates. The page shows the album artwork and is the same color scheme as Webb’s website.
When I signed up to follow the page, there were 40 followers at about 7AM. Now, just two hours later, there are over 500.
Shane Bertou
May 19, 2009
One of the more interesting things right now is Webb’s MySpace page. The page has been completely stripped of all content and redesigned to match the color scheme of the album artwork.
It features a :02 clip of a song in the player titled “SS” (presumably “Stokholm Syndrom”).
In the artist information he lists himself as “unsigned,” but lists his label as “Bejerot Records.”
Nils Berejot was a Swedish psychiatrist and criminologist and coined the phrase “Stockholm Syndrome” to describe a psychological phenomenon where hostages endear themselves to their captors.
Webb’s the hostage? The label his captor?
Humanity endearing itself to sin?
Hmm…
jess
May 19, 2009
i think you might have a problem
Shane Bertou
May 19, 2009
Nope. Just find it intriguing, and curious to see how it all plays out.
Marketing through social networking is part of how I earn a living. So I’m going to school on this whole campaign.
Shane Bertou
May 19, 2009
My buddy Brian just sent me this link:
http://www.paradiseisaparkinglot.com/
From the looks of that site, there might be some kind of scavenger hunt thing going on to get download codes. Of course, if it’s limited to those in and around Nashville it will suck for about 99% of the rest of us.
Tamara
May 19, 2009
I was just about to ask if anyone else came up with Paradise is a parking lot from the underscores in that message.
Shane Bertou
May 19, 2009
According to the “Help” part of that website, once a task is completed it will unlock a portion (or stem) of a song. Once the task is completed by the first five people it will unlock the stem of the song for everyone. Stems have to be played together to hear the complete song.
(Sure hope I’m not violating the “tell no one” instruction.)
mudpuppy
May 19, 2009
Click on the RSS feed button for some stuff…
Shane Bertou
May 19, 2009
I saw the photo of the eye and the mp3 of quick samples earlier, but I chalked it up to beta testing gibberish.
The video is new. I’m downloading it. It’s gibberish too. Just a still photo with some background conversation about nothing. If it has meaning, I don’t care enough to try to figure it out.
Just checked the Twitter page. 2,000 followers by lunch. Not too shabby.
And the first Nashville artifact has been found. Four more and we get to piece together the first song.
Update: Just checked in again. 2,500 followers by 1:30PM and the second and third Nashville artifacts have been found.
Update 2: Fourth of five artifacts found. Makes me optimistic we’ll hear the first song today!
Update 3: Fifth artifact found. “First 5 stems available to all soon”
Shane Bertou
May 19, 2009
OK. So, I downloaded the first five stems.
Each “stem” is a :02 clip. Each stem’s title is a word, apparently a part of a sentence:
apartment
in San
joined
press,
to every
So what it’s looking like is that we’re going to have to download 20 stems, each with 5 :02 clips (totaling 100 clips).
So we’ll have to figure out the order of 100 :02 clips to listen to one song?
I’m also wondering if we’ll need to use the clues from the “RSS” link to put this together at all.
I know Webb’s a big Lost fan. But this kind of crazy.
Eric Gregory
May 19, 2009
http://wearethestories.blogspot.com/2009/05/derek-webbs-stockholm-syndrom.html
Lively discussion going on…
giacomettifamily
May 20, 2009
Here’s an article on it from Relevant.com:
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/main/slices/music/16959-derek-webbs-publicity-stunt
Shane Bertou
May 20, 2009
Yeah. I saw that. Nothing new there really, just more confirmation.
Here’s what I’ve learned so far…
If you build up a ton of hype, you better not under deliver. People were glued to their computers all day yesterday to see what would happen when all five artifacts were discovered. Then it turned out to be five :02 clips.
Now today … no new developments.
Even most of the super-die-hards on his message board are expressing their frustration/boredom.
Update: One observant fan pointed out that all of the phrases listed as track titles turn up in this Wikipedia entry about Patty Hearst – the most famous case of Stockholm Syndrome. Speculates that the wikipedia entry will help us put the stems in order once they’re all released. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_Hearst
jess
May 20, 2009
yeah even if i was a huge fan, i can imagine this all would get to be a little frustrating and or boring. and i would have to be seriously amazing to be worth it all, and seeing as his label didn’t want to touch it i doubt it’s that amazing? right? we’ll see i guess.
Shane Bertou
May 20, 2009
Well… I’m already at the point where I’m just waiting for all the seeds to become available. Which, at this current pace should happen sometime in 2013.
jess
May 21, 2009
lol, it would be kind of funny if people just gave up and nothing ever came of it. then what would he do?
Shane Bertou
May 21, 2009
New developments… makes me wonder if RELEVANT is in on it.
When you go to DerekWebb.com two new links have emerged. The word “trouble” in the first email, and the word “r_eal” in the second.
The first link takes you to that RELEVANT article. The second is a black screen where you have to enter something.
Enter the words in quotes in the entry field and hit enter after each. “controversy” enter. “having” enter. “label” enter.
Once you hit the third enter, it will download a whole song titled “The Spirit Vs. The Kickdrum”. (Which I really like BTW).
There is also a Word document with the following numbers: 10-2-4
mudpuppy
May 21, 2009
Words are case-sensitive. No capitals when entering.
Shane Bertou
May 21, 2009
Do you think I should post the tune? I mean, he’s giving it away for free anyway right?
mudpuppy
May 21, 2009
Does the music flash player work in comments like the video does?
Shane Bertou
May 21, 2009
Nope. Oh well.
If you want to hear it, here it is. Click to play, right click to download.
And for the record. I’m having fun again.
Shane Bertou
May 21, 2009
There’s a ton of stuff I haven’t posted because alot of it is speculative and not very tangible.
But these guys have been really digging into the more cryptic stuff in the RSS feed. Depending on how interested you are, it might be worth following them too.
Shane Bertou
May 21, 2009
Yeah, this thing’s crazy convoluted and weird.
For example (someone else figured all this ou):
On DerekWebb.com there is a hidden link toward the bottom of the page. When you click it it takes you to a page that says:
wha_t do you _wan_t? (erro_r -0558 103)
You have to answer the question.
The underscored letters are TWTR. Twitter
The numbers actually do have meaning. Derek’s 1/03 Twitter entry says “I don’t want the spirit, I want the kickdrum”
Enter “kickdrum” and it reveals a GIANT photo of Derek. Look closely at the photo and it reveals a url in Derek’s black eye.
http://www.black-eye.me
Go there and there’s another question:
what time it is? (error -0241 120)
Answer: youneverknow
Then it plays a video. Quick cuts, a sample from a song. The term “black eye” in the lyrics.
That’s it.
Shane Bertou
May 21, 2009
The hunt’s back on. Artifacts are at Horizon Records store in Greenville, SC. The first one has been found already.
christianmusicreview
May 21, 2009
Interesting way of getting around record contracts, eh?
ShaneBertou
May 21, 2009
The second seed has been posted for download.
ShaneBertou
May 21, 2009
Tomorrow I’ll try to spend some time on all the stuff in the RSS feed. Weird files, cryptic videos, etc. Not a whole lot tangible there, but there’s some interesting nuggets.
Shane Bertou
May 22, 2009
I downloaded the second stem this morning. Pretty much the same as the first.. Six :02 clips.
to swap
(inspired
on an audiotape
better.)
family
Once again all the words can be found in the Patty Hearst Wikipedia entry. The prevailing theory is that the third paragraph of that article will give us the correct order for the clips.
Shane Bertou
May 26, 2009
Third stem available. Otherwise, no real developments.
Luke
May 29, 2009
You are my source…keep it up!
Shane Bertou
May 29, 2009
Sorry my status updates have been lacking of late. I’ve been in Chicago. I’ll get back on it ASAP….
Shane Bertou
June 1, 2009
Not much has changed still. More seeds are available, but that’s about it. There haven’t been any new “Easter eggs” on any of the sites that anyone has discovered. Just the scavenger hunt to unlock more seed downloads.
Alex
June 4, 2009
If you go back to Derekwebb.com and click on the word “all” in the first e mail, there is a link to a page with the bar code. click on the third bar from the left and you will find another video called “end.” I haven’t found anything on this yet, so maybe someone can explain…
Shane Bertou
June 4, 2009
The beeps are in fact Morse code. Someone at the site I linked below translated it.
It comes out to – BNA 07/03/09
BNA is the airport code for Nashville. So the theory is that this whole thing comes to an end where it started. In Nashville. On July 3rd.
Shane Bertou
June 4, 2009
Yeah. I’ve been really bad about reporting all the little details. Basically there have been tons of little videos and images, all giving clues to various things. I haven’t made much sense of the videos, but the images seem to give clues to upcoming locations for recovering “artifacts.”
In that video it says “the beginning is the end is the beginning.” Which is the title of a Smashing Pumpkins song. Not sure if the beeps and blips are Morse code or not.
These guys appear to be the best source of info/speculation on the whole thing as they’re really into the game.
My interest has waned a bit since my trip to Chicago. I felt like I missed too much and didn’t have enough time to catch up (while trying to maintain some semblance of productivity at work).
Shane Bertou
June 10, 2009
Some new developments…
A new link has appeared DerekWebb.com. If you click on “need to” it takes you to that same page with the bar code. The third line is still linked to the movie titled “end.” But now the 14th bar is linked to a new video clip titled “simple.”
Video of someone driving, with amp wires superimposed in the background.
More Morse code: 6PM, GPS to follow.
So the best anyone can guess is that – based on the two Morse code messages – something is happening in Nashville on July 3rd at 6PM.
Shane Bertou
June 10, 2009
Oh, and I’ve begun assembling the stems in the correct order. New stems are available now, so I’ll wait to plug those in before posting the mp3.
Shane Bertou
June 10, 2009
If anyone wants to hear the song that’s being assembled as it is right now (just under the halfway point), you can do so here…
http://shanebertou.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/stockholm-syndrome-so-far.mp3
penguinicus
June 10, 2009
The latest files are always available here:
wav: http://is.gd/V9Aq
mp4: http://is.gd/V9Co
scripts: http://is.gd/XoAS (to sort and assemble for yourself)
Shane Bertou
June 12, 2009
Freaking crap. I kept checking my RSS feed yesterday and no updates came through. Then they come through this morning and I missed the boat….
Tweet one: am i _r_eally trouble_d? are y_ou? _what does that mea_n? te_ll me y_our truth _an_d i’ll tell you mine.
Translation: redownload
Tweet two: thi_s is s_tupid. who car_es. i’_m leaving. i’m only going to say this _2 times.
Translation: stem 2
Tweet three: You have 12 hours starting now, until Waco time (PM)
Translation: Shane missed it.
By all accounts if you redownloaded Stem 2 there was a new song titled “Freddy Please.” Some sort of do-wop pop tune that put Fred Phelps on blast.
I’m trying to track it down somewhere in the blogsphere, but no luck thus far.
Melinda
June 12, 2009
Thanks for posting the mp3, Shane! I found your website a couple weeks ago and was following it for a synopsis of this dwebb business. I missed the download too but am thankful you posted it! Thanks for keeping us up to date!
Shane Bertou
June 12, 2009
There’s still a ton of little things I’ve neglected to mention. But I try to keep the significant stuff as current as possible.
It’s been fun following along thus far.
Shane Bertou
June 12, 2009
Found it…
http://shanebertou.wordpress.com/files/2009/06/freddie-please.mp3
Shane Bertou
June 12, 2009
New instructions:
Go to CD Central in Lexington, KY, inquire about the new release from the Swedish Police
Shane Bertou
June 13, 2009
All five Lexington artifacts have been found. The stems are now available. I’ll post an updated version of the song-in-progress on Monday.
New instructions scheduled for Tuesday.
The stem download contains this photo:
http://shanebertou.wordpress.com/files/2009/06/ss.jpg
As with past photos that have been included in stem downloads, it’s likely a clue as to the next city. Some have already figured it out, but I won’t “spoil’ it for you guys until Monday. Feel free to guess though. I have a feeling there’s one or two people who hang out here who know that one.
Allison Bean
June 13, 2009
Where in the world did you find “Heaven” and “The Spirit Vs. The Kick Drum”? I have been tracking this and seen nothing of those two songs.
health
June 14, 2009
thanks for your posting
ShaneBertou
June 14, 2009
“Heaven” was cheating a bit. If you donated money during the “Save Paste” campaign, it was one of the free downloads. But since it’s on the record, I included it above.
For instructions on finding “The Spirit vs. The Kick Drum” see this comment from May 21st.
Shane Bertou
June 15, 2009
Updates:
- I updated the work in progress song to include the latest stems. We’re halfway there!
- The image I referred to in this comment is of Reunion Tower in Dallas, TX. We’ll see if that’s the next city.
- New instructions on 6/16.
- You can now pre-order Stockholm Syndrome on Chrsitianbook.com. It says the release date is 9/01. I’m really hoping he doesn’t drag this thing out that long!
Shane Bertou
June 15, 2009
Update on Twitter:
“Label negotiations going well. Compromise within sight, official release date coming. More details re: BNA event this week. Pay attention.”
Nikomas Perez
June 15, 2009
Is that the infamous “give a s**t” lyric at second :48 of your Stockholm comp?
Shane Bertou
June 15, 2009
That certainly appears to be the case.
Shane Bertou
June 15, 2009
There’s a new video in the RSS feed at paradiseisaparkinglot.com. Nothing special, just :30 of Derek and Josh Moore working on a keyboard part on his Mac.
Shane Bertou
June 16, 2009
New Tweets and instructions:
#1) Looks like the label has optimistically released the street date. Stockholm Syndrome looks to be in stores 09/01/09.
(Uhm, like I said!
)
#2) http://derekwebb.com will have Stockholm Syndrome for pre-order, with immediate full digital download, two months earlier. more news soon.
And new instructions….
“Go to Vertigo Records in Dallas, TX, inquire about the new Electra King single”
FYI… (from UrbanDictionary.com)
Shane Bertou
June 16, 2009
So that was weird. Turns out there is no “Vertigo Records” in Dallas, TX. And now the instructions have been changed…
“Go to Opening Bell Coffee House (Southside) in Dallas, TX, ask to speak to Mr. Devlin.”
benpatient
June 16, 2009
Just as an FYI, you don’t need to do anything fancy to get the sound clips into the proper order. They were time-stamped in-order, so if you sort all the clips by date, they will be in-order. You can then drag them into a playlist in that order, and it will be correct. This has worked for every stem so far.
Shane Bertou
June 16, 2009
Thanks. That’s a good tip. I kind of enjoy tracking down the order via the article. Kind of like a puzzle. But you may have just saved me tons of time.
sam
June 16, 2009
Any word on the SS.jpg picture clue in the Dallas Stem?
Shane Bertou
June 16, 2009
All the artifacts have been found and the stems are available. I’ll post an updated version tomorrow.
This is the image Sam is referring to:
http://shanebertou.wordpress.com/files/2009/06/ss1.jpg
Apparently it’s of the Grand Rapids Speedrome. Which pretty much means the next city is Grand Rapids. And there is a Vertigo Records in Grand Rapids, so that probably explains today’s hiccup as well.
sam
June 16, 2009
ah yes!.. wow. how did you find out?
Shane Bertou
June 17, 2009
The guys over here are pretty hardcore about this campaign and are pretty quick to figure that stuff out. I think someone did some research on the names of the champions shown on the image and figured out what track it’s from.
Shane Bertou
June 17, 2009
I updated the Stockholm Syndrome mp3.
New instructions are expected today. I’ll post ‘em when they come in.
Shane Bertou
June 17, 2009
New instructions:
“Go to Vertigo Records in Grand Rapids, MI, inquire about the new Electra King single”
Pretty much what I thought.
Shane Bertou
June 18, 2009
All five artifacts have been discovered. The stem has been released. The song has been updated above.
New image included with the stem:
http://shanebertou.wordpress.com/files/2009/06/ss12.jpg
Should be pretty easy to figure out the next city…
New instructions on 6/19.
Shane Bertou
June 18, 2009
There appears to be conformation on the speculation surrounding the Morse code mentioned here and here.
When you click the word “all” on Derek Webb’s site, it takes you to a site with the meter barcode thingy…
A new link has emerged on the barcode. The second line is linked to a movie clip titled “OK.”
During the clip, it says “In the end, it will all be ok.” And then there’s more Morse code.
As everyone figured, the Morse Code gives GPS coordinates.
36.156650,-86.774080
Which someone has translated to:
410 4th Ave S
Nashville, TN 37201
It’s a club called Rutledge LMV. Their calendar lists a Derek Webb “industry showcase” scheduled for July 3rd.
http://www.calendarwiz.com/calendars/popup.php?&op=view&id=23637308&crd=rutledgeeventscalendar
So the sleuths were right in their original guesses!
ShaneBertou
June 19, 2009
Today’s instructions:
“Go to Northwest Coffee (Central West End) in St. Louis, MO, ask for a bag of whole bean Tufton.”
All five artifacts have been found. Stems should be available soon.
Shane Bertou
June 22, 2009
All the St. Louis artifacts were found on Friday. I’ve updated the song above to include them.
New image:
http://shanebertou.wordpress.com/files/2009/06/ss13.jpg
It’s Chicago. Which was confirmed in the instructions that came out today:
“Go to the Gallery Cafe in Chicago, IL, order a Smart Latte with no whip”
As of right now, two of five Chicago artifacts have been found. I’m sure the rest will be found by the end of the day. I’ll update the tune ASAP once they are.
Shane Bertou
June 23, 2009
All of the Chicago artifacts have been located and the stem has been made available. I’ve updated the song above.
The new image makes it pretty simple to guess what city is next:
http://shanebertou.wordpress.com/files/2009/05/ss14.jpg
“Await further instructions on 6/24″
Shane Bertou
June 23, 2009
New Tweet:
Each word is linked to the same website with the bar code. There is a new video linked on the 13th line titled “give up.” It’s video of someone driving past the Ruthledge and says the following very quietly in the right speaker…
“film, questions, answers, music, surprise, reward, the end, the beginning”
Seems to basically confirm the show at the Rutledge. But this is all old news to you guys.
Sure wish I lived anywhere near Nashville.
Shane Bertou
June 24, 2009
New instructions:
Big city. This one will probably go quickly.
Shane Bertou
June 24, 2009
All five Houston artifacts have been found. The song has been updated above.
New image:
http://shanebertou.wordpress.com/files/2009/05/ss15.jpg
I have no idea where that church is. I already looked to see if it’s Fred Phelps’, and it’s not.
Shane Bertou
June 24, 2009
It’s the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama. Dang I’m good!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bombing
Luke
June 25, 2009
So are artifacts coming to Bham?
Shane Bertou
June 25, 2009
It would certainly fit the pattern. Keep your eye on the Stockholm Syndrome Twitter feed tomorrow for info.
The “artifacts” are flash drives with the bar code logo printed on them. They include the stems and jpg images that ultimately get released to everyone else. But the cool bonus is there have been rumors of free concert tickets and “tier three” (no idea what that means) CD pre-orders.
So it’s probably worth the effort if you’re close to the location.
Shane Bertou
June 25, 2009
New Tweet:
Which directs you to this Tweet from Ugly Mugs (the first location)…
Probably has nothing to do with the treasure hunt IMO. Most likely Derek gave them his CD to play and is “tongue in cheek” with his “we have no knowledge of this.”
Shane Bertou
June 26, 2009
New instructions:
First one has been found already.
Luke, be sure to let us know if you’re one of the ones who gets one of the artifacts!
CWood
June 26, 2009
looks like louisville might be the next location… i was a couple min too late in b-ham. it went quick!
Luke
June 26, 2009
I did not make it!! Man!
ShaneBertou
June 30, 2009
New instructions:
New Tweet yesterday:
Old news…
And a bunch of coffee shops have reported getting advance copies of the album, or which Derek Webb “has no knowledge of.”
I’m glad this thing is almost over.
Al Boyce
June 30, 2009
Can I assume the coffeeshop where I got my artifact will be getting the CD?
Shane Bertou
June 30, 2009
It’s probably not safe to assume anything. But I’d definitely keep my eye on the Twitter feed!
Shane Bertou
July 3, 2009
I’m on the road and unable to update extensively. But here’s what I can tell you…
Since the last update there’s been a few more cities, and the whole thing seems to be wrapping up today in Nashville. With that “secret” show being the big CD release party.
Four of five artifacts have already been recovered in Nashville. These will be the last, the song will now be complete. I’ve also learned that the tune is titled “What Matters More.”
There have been rumors of a pre-order coming soon with a full digital download available immediately when you do. I will – of course – post any info on that the second I hear of any…
It’s been fun. But I ran out of steam a couple weeks ago and am glad it’s almost over.
TheProgress
July 3, 2009
Thanks to Jonathan at twitter.com/penguinicus
Completed wav: http://is.gd/V9Aq;
mp4: http://is.gd/V9Co
Seriously an amazing song!
Shane Bertou
July 3, 2009
Alright, I’ve uploaded the final version of the tune. You can hear it above. Props to Penguinicus as I’m traveling and couldn’t update my version.
It’ll get its own post too…
Shane Bertou
July 3, 2009
Latest info being Tweeted from Derek’s show at Rutledge is that Stockholm Syndrome will be available on Tuesday. Six different versions will be available at some point.
Jason Delgado
July 6, 2009
After just hearing the new “controversial” Derek Webb track, I would answer his question:
“What matters more to you?”
HOLINESS
I understand the point he is trying to make, but why does that take a higher precedence than holiness? We are told to be holy as God is holy, God is described as “Holy, holy, holy”, no other attribute of God is described this way, not his justice or care for the poor, or love, ect…
Can’t we love the unlovable and feed and help the poor without the use of filthy language? That seems like a higher call.
I am sorry, but I understand now why the record company says he went to far.
I hope this is not taken as a blast, but rather I think we should be wise when it comes to these issues, and cussing doesn’t seem to help in any way that would promote the point he is trying to make and holiness.
grace,
jason d.
Shane Bertou
July 6, 2009
I hear your point. But we’d also then have to apply the same criticism to Paul’s writings, no?
We’ve talked about that verse here before. The word translated “shit” in that passage is σκύβαλα, or “skubala.” Not only does it literally mean “human excrement” but it has the same vulgar connotation as the English word “shit.”
The use of “vulgarity” to make a point certainly has some precedent in Scripture. For example:
Ken had some interesting thoughts on the difference between “coarse” language and swearing when we talked about this one a while back.
Jason Delgado
July 7, 2009
Notice those aren’t the words used though, those words are not crass, and i know there is a select few that will argue for it,…but it is very very very few.
ShaneBertou
July 7, 2009
Those aren’t the words used by English Bible translators, no. That doesn’t mean those weren’t the words or connotation used in the original texts.
The KJV translators at least kept the heart of the word “skubala” intact by using the word “dung.” Even if it did effectively take away the intended punch of Paul’s writing. The NIV, NASB, and NLT translators watered it down further by translating it “rubbish” or “garbage.” They took it from human feces (pretty vulgar) to empty milk cartons and junk mail. From something that’s disgusting, and needs to be buried deep in the ground away from camp to something you can just easily store out of the way and is only slightly inconvenient..
Essentially, in cases like this, the translators have censored the Scriptures. Sanitized them so they don’t offend our ears or sense of what “good” and “bad” words are. Just like we’ve done to nearly every other aspect of the Christian life.
Jason Delgado
July 7, 2009
Those aren’t the words used in English Bible translations, nor any other translations. Those words don’t equal what you are saying they do.
Can you show me one Greek lexicon where σκύβαλα or “skubala” is used the way you used it?
Consider this from Phil Johnson:
“Actually, that word had a range of possible meanings, and the way it was used in secular Greek literature explodes the myth that it was considered taboo. It was a strong word, certainly, and I have no doubt that Paul used it deliberately because it was strong. But it wasn’t the sort of vile expression that was considered off limits in mixed company. It’s sometimes translated “rubbish,” and that’s one of the possible connotations. But it is undoubtedly true that when he used this word in Philippians 3, Paul was not trying to be mild or tactful. He probably did use the word to signify dung—manure; feces—the worst kind of filth. But you don’t need to use Saxon four-letter words in order to convey Paul’s idea clearly.
Furthermore, that kind of strong speech was so far from being Paul’s trademark that the few instances we find in the New Testament where Paul said crude things stand out boldly—which was Paul’s design.
In fact, the only other instance of coarse language people usually point out in Paul is in Galatians 5:12, where Paul was answering the Judaizers. They insisted that uncircumcised Gentiles could not be saved unless they submitted to the ritual removal of their foreskins. Paul turned the logic of their doctrine against them: if salvation can literally be gained through cutting off some flesh, why not go further? If circumcision was efficacious for justification, just think what castration could do for them.
Listen, it’s easily possible to explain to English-speaking adults what Paul meant there—and it’s even possible to use the same kind of sarcastic argument Paul used—without descending into the gutter to do it. Paul himself managed to say this without overthrowing his own dignity. What he says is shocking and forceful—perhaps the single most shocking thing Paul says anywhere. But He used no vile expressions. He wasn’t being profane or obscene, and this grotesque imagery (the self-mutilation of someone who makes himself a eunuch) wasn’t a foreign idea he injected into an unrelated subject just so he could turn the topic to something crude. This point was totally germane to the rational argument he was making, not merely a vulgar insult thrown in for crudeness’ sake. It came at the end of four and a half chapters in which Paul carefully dismantled the Judaizers’ doctrine. And earthy sarcasm like this certainly never became a defining element in Paul’s style of polemical discourse.
Furthermore, there is a significant difference between strong language and obscene talk. Strong language is definitely needed more often than our postmodern culture wants to hear it, but profane language is never warranted,…”
If you are truly convinced that it is ok to use this kind of language then I suggest you listen to the entire sermon from where the above quote was taken: http://shatteredpixels.net/media/SC_03-06-09_AM_Phil.mp3
Further more, do you know the Greek language?
soli Deo gloria!
jason d.
Shane Bertou
July 7, 2009
I think we’re kind of proving Derek Webb’s point here now aren’t we?
The language doesn’t matter to me in the slightest.
Jason Delgado
July 7, 2009
Not being sarcastic in anyway, I am sorry that language does not matter to you, and yes, we may be proving Derek Webb’s point, but is he to be our authority in this matter?
I am sorry, but if you are a brother in Christ then I would encourage you to have the Bible as your final authority, and the Bible is just too clear on this issue:
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.
- James 3:9-10
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
- Ephesians 4:29
Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
- Ephesians 5:4
But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
- Colossians 3:8
And I only bring this up, because I agree with Derek’s point, but think he could have made it without crude language, also I am worried that he is undermining holiness. Do you really think what matters most is helping the poor (which is good and we are supposed to do that) when the Bible commands the following:
So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
- 2 Timothy 2:22
Abstain from every form of evil.
- 1 Thessalonians 5:22
As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
- 1 Peter 1:14-16
Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.
- 1 Peter 2:12
But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”
- 2 Timothy 2:19
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
- Romans 12:2
“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
- Matthew 12:33-37
I am sorry if you think I am trying to just debate till we are blue in the face, but I am simply trying to show that holiness matters,…because it matters to God.
So unless I see a command that we are to talk with vulgar language or see any lexicon that defines σκύβαλα the way you did to justify cussing, then I don’t think it wise to use that kind of language.
soli Deo gloria,
jason d.
Al Boyce
July 7, 2009
I think what concerns me about some of this is the legalism that creeps in. It isn’t the Bible that tells us WHAT words are “dirty” or “vile” or “evil.” We get that from society. When I think of cursing someone, I don’t think of calling them a name, I think of wishing them dead, or praying they contract a disease or lose their job.
So, my concern isn’t whether someone uses a particular word, but whether its use, in context, builds up the body of Christ (blessing) or tears it down (cursing).
To me it also isn’t about whether we need to do more for the poor, but where are our hearts? Do we condemn someone who says “shit” with the same heart that we condemn someone who is gay or who had an abortion?
jason delgado
July 7, 2009
is it legalism,…or grace abuse?
I think you have enough wisdom to discern what words are appropriate when,…also ask yourself if your words:
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.
- James 3:9-10
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
- Ephesians 4:29
Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
- Ephesians 5:4
But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
- Colossians 3:8
ShaneBertou
July 7, 2009
Just in case we needed all those verses quoted again. In their entirety. Two comments later.
I kid, I kid.
FracturedSaint
July 6, 2009
Hey Shane,
I know this might seem like an odd comment but what is the name of the flash player you use?
Thanks for posting all the new Derek Webb stuff.
ShaneBertou
July 7, 2009
The flash player I use is a tool available to WordPress users. It’s not anything I had to install or anything. I just upload the tunes, and then punch in the code [audio=trackurl].
FracturedSaint
July 7, 2009
Ok thanks. I had it (or one very similar) on a site a while back, but when I switched from blogspot to a standalone I lost the script and the swf. Stinks, its so nice and small. Thanks
Al Boyce
July 6, 2009
I have mixed feelings, although my gut feeling is that it can’t hurt to shake people up.
I guess we need to look at the fruit. Who are we trying to reach? If we want to rattle the self-righteous who really are more concerned with our language than they are with hungry children, will this get their attention or turn them off?
I do believe those people are NOT being reached through the channels that have been used in the church up to now.
FracturedSaint
July 6, 2009
Its interesting to read this Tony Campolo interview. It’s always good to know more about the heart behind the action then just judging someone or something strictly based on an action. http://www.progressive.org/?q=mag_camp0805
Drew HAle
July 7, 2009
I’d have to say…I think we’re majoring a little too much on the minors here. I myself cannot wait to hear the reast of this cd! I think the idea that how we speak matter more than who we speak to is preposterous. It is ENTIRELY selfish. a focus on MY holiness or MY way of speaking, or making MYSELF a better person through Christ is not only entirely missing the point, but can also be dangerous in terma of divinding people.
So really Jason…get off your damn computer for awhile and go out and find some hurintg people to love on. And I tyhink the same could be said for me!
I love you bro! You know I do, but I think you’ve gone a little too far over into ME land. Let’s go and win some people to Christ and stop worrying about who is holier than who. And really…isn’t that what Jesus CONSTANTLY yelles at the Parisees for.
Time to get our Faith in motion!!!
Drew Hale
“To know Him, and to make Him known…”
Jason Delgado
July 8, 2009
so if we are concerned with personal holiness (as God is) that means we don’t do anything for people outside of us?
I am sorry friend, but how did you draw that conclusion? Do you know what I do?
ShaneBertou
July 7, 2009
BTW… The album became available on DerekWebb.com today. I hesitate to mention it because I purchased my copy seven hours ago and I still haven’t received my download code. Word is the servers have taken a pounding and there’s a loooooong que.
Al Boyce
July 7, 2009
I’m waiting as well. I emailed them and twitted them about the “IMMEDIATE” download being a little bit less than advertised. Also asked whether I was first expected to decode a GIF that would give me the coordinates for my download
Al Boyce
July 7, 2009
And keep in mind it is from Monday Night Music … and it is Tuesday.
Amanda
July 7, 2009
Maybe it’s just me, but I put “What Matters Most” in the same category as songs like “Wedding Dress,” which, if my memory serves me correctly, was every bit as controversial for pretty much the same reasons – content and language (to the point of not being carried by some Christian stores). As far as I’m concerned, what I’ve heard of Stockholm (the 4 songs above) is simply standard fare Derek Webb.
Shane Bertou
July 9, 2009
I call this there Derek Webb effect:
http://shanebertou.wordpress.com/files/2009/07/dw-effect.jpg