Derek Webb – What Matters More?

Alright, the scavenger hunt is finally over and we get to hear what all the hub bub was about. Here’s the completed version of the song “What Matters More?”

So yeah, we’re probably going to need to talk about this one…

What Matters More? – Derek Webb

(HT Penguinicius for posting the final version so quickly.)

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62 thoughts on “Derek Webb – What Matters More?

  1. It’s tough to answer that not knowing how much you know about the whole Stockholm Syndrome scavanger hunt thing that’s been going on online. If you’re completely unfamiliar, see this post.

    I’ve been piecing the song together as stems have been released through the scavenger hunt. But this finished version came from someone else.

    1. Sure is. It was also quoted by Yancey in The Visual Version of What’s So Amazing About Grace. The CD releases on July 7? There is a show on Wednesday? Does anybody have any info or know if there is a recording of the July 3 Nashville show?

  2. I’ve never heard the quote attributed to Bono. But have heard it attributed to Campolo a million different places.

    From what I’m reading, there was no actual “show” last night. The “event” was a Q&A with Derek and the label guy to talk about the “controversey” (which was real). Then they showed a one hour film titled “Paradise is a Parking Lot” which from what I can gather was just a behind-the-scenes look at the making of the album.

    During the event some people noticed a poster on the wall offering French Bulldogs for sale. They called the number and got a recording instructing them to track down the person “with their heart on their sleeve.” When they found that person they had to ask for tickets to “White Noise.” Long story short, those handful of people who figured it otu were taken to Derek Webb’s house to hang out with him that night and listen to the album, etc.

  3. Yeah I drove from SC 5 1/2 hours to get there. I barely missed White Noise, so it definitely didn’t live up to my expectations! It was actually really frustrating – not sure if it was a well thought-out move.

  4. its a Campolo quote from ages ago. Don’t you remember the Campolo wantabe that did that in Nyack chaple? with the who Mikey is a rat in hati.

  5. The scavenger hunt was fun, but it could have been done much better.

    1. The artifacts should have contained full music files. Rather than pretend like fans were posting stems that needed to be completed to build something that probably only about 4 people actually completed before sites like this posted the new song anyway, Derek could have trusted that the finders of the artifacts would post the music online and people would have to rely on google rather than paradiseisaparkinglot.com to find the music. Instead I picked up a thumb drive that has no value outside of a 5 digit passcode I needed to get 2 free tickets to the black eye tour.

    2. The scavenger hunt should have ended in a concert. It’s apparent that Derek can’t play his new music live as he has gone electronic. I know several people who crossed several state lines to show up to a show and tell. The lucky few who got to ride the white noise to Derek’s home/studio were rewarded, but everyone else was told to go listen to the new album at a coffee shop. Not even a bar; how lame is that. Derek is an amazing performer and people were expecting a storyteller rendition of the new album; that is of course what Derek does best.

    I shouldn’t complain though. What Derek is doing with his music is great. I prefer just him and his twelve string, but his music is more about what he has to say than anything else. As each new song leaks out, all of us are held captive as we can’t wait to hear what Derek will say next. There is that shock value when in your head you’re asking questions like, “Did he just call Fred Phelps queer?” Priceless

  6. what i can’t help but wondering is what if all these people who put all this effort into ‘finding’ his album, put that much effort into feeding the hungry or caring for the sick and dying what a real difference that would make. wouldn’t that be great?

    1. Of course it would. But let’s be careful not assume that these folks aren’t doing some great things already. It’s like anything else … some will try to make a difference, some won’t, and some already were.

      One of the things I most admire about Derek Webb is that he uses the platform he’s been entrusted pretty effectively. All the hype he generated with this whole marketing campaign also built up alot of anticipation for his Give a Shit effort. And I’m quite certain he’ll use the upcoming tour to promote that ministry. I’m sure alot of his fans will get involved with that… so you may get your wish after all.

    2. Jess, it’s not a zero sum game. There are a lot of Derek Webb fans who dedicate their lives to serving others and I think it’s unfair to knock them for having having some fun and appreciating music and art. If we claimed that simply being part of the D. Webb movement was somehow making a difference, then I could see your point. But everyone in the world should be entitled (and even encouraged) to read books, listen to music and even play sports without feeling guilty about it. Christians are people not robots.

      1. calm down calm down, i wasn’t knocking anyone or discouraging anyone from reading or listening to music, i was just saying…………..

  7. I’ve been waiting for someone to comment on the overall theme of the song, which I think is a well intended, but slippery commentary on the issue of homosexuality.

    I completely believe that as a whole, Christianity has pretty well butchered its attempts to deal with the issue well. Acts of violence, hatred, and mass judgment is far from what our response should be to those who identify themselves as homosexuals. BUT, I don’t think that the appropriate response to that error is to be completely accepting of the lifestyle either…

    Read all of Leviticus 20, not just the verse about homosexuality. Read all of I Cor. 69-20, not just the verse about homosexuality… There is not a single issue in those verses that we argue about being sinful, yet we question the issue of homosexuality. If someone who claimed to be a believer within our local congregation claimed that incest or beastiality was OK and they were accepting of that lifestyle, would we as the church be accepting of that?

    I don’t understand how we can read the bible and not understand that homosexuality is a sin. My issue is not with the world at large, who don’t know and claim Christ, but with those who claim faith and yet also outrightly accept a lifestyle of sin through homosexuality. Paul said “it isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it is certainly your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. God will judge those on the outside, but as the scriptures say, “you must remove the evil person from among you” (I Cor. 5:12-13).

    With the world at large, I think it’s our job as the church to love with the love of Christ. How can we expect Christian actions from non-believers? Condemning a non-believer of homosexuality is useless if they don’t know Jesus. It’s a bandaid on a fatal wound. However, to those that claim to be followers of Christ, I believe that there must be some form of accountability to their actions and lifestyle – in all things, not just the issue of homosexuality. I think the church has become entirely too concerned with stepping on people’s toes and has lost it’s thirst for purity in the body of Christ.

    I think Webb’s song is great in that it can open dialogue and can bring to the forefront one of the issues that the Church at large must deal with… I hope that in that dialogue, that scripture can be heard and have a place in people’s lives…

    1. Matt, that is some awesome commentary. When you look at the conflict in America over homosexuality, I think we have to side with the gays and criticize the Christians for not loving them. This is different than looking at the issue of homosexuality itself. If we start having gay ministers all across America, the conversation changes. At the moment, the American church is showing a lot of hate towards a secular group of peaceful people. Jesus was pretty consistent at criticizing the Pharisees and showing love and grace to thieves and prostitutes.

      I hope these songs inspire more discussions like this. What I really hope for is more Christian artists who will sing about their actual feelings rather than just stringing along a series of Christian buzz words and calling it music.

      1. how exactly, would you say, is the american church showing a lot of hate towards homosexuals? i guess i don’t see it.
        i totally disagree, but there is a church (methodist) in my community that has an openly lesbian pastor.
        i don’t really see the hate everyone seems to be talking about. i see people disagreeing with the lifestyle, let’s pick on rick warren again. and i see the media saying he hates gays, but i think that’s unfair.

        1. I dunno. Fred Phelps for one. People see that and attribute it to all of us. No denying all the Prop. 8 propaganda that came from the church as well. That gets interpreted by a whole lot of folks as intolerance and hatred. I’m not sure that’s the best way for us to have a dialogue about the issue.

          But even beyond that … I personally know quite a few Christians, particularly those a generation or two older than myself, who can barely say the word “homosexual” without appearing as though they’re going to vomit.

          There’s alot of what many interpret as hatred that shows on faces, tone of voice, side comments and snide remarks. Not to mention what comes straight (no pun intended) from the pulpits, the picket lines and over the airwaves.

          1. so a lot of interpretation? i am not being sarcastic here, i am really wanting to know. cause i hear this all the time from everywhere, but i really have never seen it day to day. and christians bashing other christians even about legitimate things always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. like if we know these hate filled christians shouldn’t we be loving them and showing them mercy and love to the same degree we would show any sinner?

          2. I don’t think we can expect the world to act like Christ or receive His teachings. I think preaching against homosexuality “out there in the world” is a waste of time. When it stops being a waste of time is if it is being practiced by people professing to be Christians. That’s when the preaching should begin, in my opinion, and to them, not the rest of the world. I haven’t witnessed a lot of that myself. I haven’t sat in one church service, (and I travel a lot and have sat in plenty,) that has “gay bashed.” No, it’s not fair that high profile people are getting attention and labeling the rest of us whether we like it or not, but there’s nothing we can do about it. The enemy is going to use whatever he can to ruin what the world sees of us. He’s going to twist things to his liking and we can’t stop it. By voting against something, we are doing what we can. A vote is not preaching, and making people aware of their chance to vote for or against something is responsible citizenry in my opinion.

            What is my point? Don’t let high profile people speak for you, speak for yourself and let your circle of influence know what you believe. Preach the Gospel in love. Sometimes being loving is warning someone of the danger they are putting themselves in. The Bible does say that homosexuality is a sin, and letting a friend who professes to be a believer remain in that sin and refraining from giving a loving and as gentle as possible warning is possibly a sin of omission. Life is about relationships and love is about relationships. All I feel is right to do is speak Truth into the lives of my friends and family, those within my circle of influence.

    2. Matt,

      Thank you for your very balanced comments; I completely agree with your analysis of the problem. We as Christians must be careful not to react to the sinful responses of other Christians to homosexuals; instead, we should respond to those who struggle with this area of sin with love, clearly communicating God’s desire for repentance, forgiveness & healing in their lives. The distinction you make about how we treat those outside & inside the body of Christ is so important, too. May we respond to all fellow sinners by speaking the truth of the Gospel in love!

    3. I understand that you don’t understand it. Many people don’t.

      But then again, many people don’t understand how divorced —even divorced and remarried— people are welcomed into churches and pulpits without an eyelash batted. Or how interracial marriage is accepted as normal in many churches even though the Bible is pretty specific about not intermingling bloodlines of different tribes. Or. how a preacher can be overweight and not be called a horrible sinner who’s going to hell.

      The weird thing is, Derek’s song isn’t even pro-gay. It’s anti-anti-gay. Don’t worry, he’s not saying you have to show love to gay people. He’s just saying “We have more important things to worry about.”

    4. The call for homosexuals is the same as every follower of Christ. “Deny self, take up my cross and follow me.” If you feel the call to follow Jesus, you will want their to be more of Christ and less of you. If you truly love Jesus, you will want to obey his commands. For homosexuals and others living in unrepentant sin, It is a lack of faith not to trust Christ and believe that He can change your heart (core you) or that his plan does not lead to a better life for you. The cool thing is that each one of us can pray for Jesus to change us. Jesus says his yolk is light- It takes faith to believe that. Just like the sins I struggle with, homosexuals are called to repent, lay down their sin nature and follow Christ. We must be compassionate, but if we truly believe, we must love eachother AND hold eachother accountable to God’s plans at the same time.

  8. I have to agree with a few of the comments above….I, personally, have not seen any acts of “violence, hatred, or mass judgment” towards homosexuals by Christians. I’d even go so far as to say that NONE of the Christians I’ve talked to over the past year (and that’s a lot) have said anything hateful whatsoever about “gays and lesbians”. I’ve heard rumors of some guy from somewhere who said something “hateful” but that definitely does not reflect on the Christian majority. Many of the opinions I’ve heard expressed about homosexuality have contained upfront disagreement with the lifestyle choice, overwhelming concern for the persons involved, and an openness to connect with the individuals on a personal level.

    1. Maybe hate is a strong word. Fred Phelps certainly does NOT represent mainstream Christianity. But it bothers me that mainstream Christians get involved in American politics largely to take rights away from homosexual couples. When there are so many HUGE problems in this world, why is the church so concerned with holding another group of people down? I personally think the church should stay out of politics altogether and focus their energy on serving the poor throughout the world. The fact that Rick Warren can raise all that money to fight homosexuality in California, rather than use it actually help somebody, makes me angry. It’s probably not “hateful” of him, but it does indicate “what matters more” to Rick. In my opinion poor people don’t need churches building multimillion dollar facilities just as homosexuals don’t need churches actively campaigning against their lifestyle.

      1. i don’t really believe that most christians fighting prop 8 or any other legislation really want to take anything away or hold anyone down, etc.
        i tend to agree about the rick warren point, same thing i was saying about dw that you disagreed with! ๐Ÿ˜‰ money and energy that starving, dying people might appreciate. but just like dw he is standing up for what he believes in.

        1. Touche, Jess, touche. I’m largely in agreement with you. However, regardless of how innocent we find the fight against prop 8 to be, the fact of the matter is that it really pissed off a lot of people. Not to be oversensitive about it, but does the church really want to be actively pissing people off like that? Maybe it’s not hateful, but it’s at least insensitive. Doing a scavenger hunt might be a waste of time, but at least it’s not hurting others.

    2. This is sort of what I’m getting at here. How we’re not even having the same conversation when it comes to homosexuality. The term “lifestyle choice” is pretty much a loaded statement that you hear alot of in the church. But I don’t know many in the gay/lesbian community that would agree that their same-sex attraction is a “lifestyle choice.” Yours and my heterosexuality isn’t a choice on our part.

      This is a pretty big hurdle IMO. And it’s at the very entry point to the larger conversation…

    3. You haven’t seen the mass judgement or hatred? Really? “Defense of Marraige Act”, Prop 8, etc. That’s hatred. That’s basically saying that a group of people is less than you. There is no other way to take either one of those documents. You are stripping rights away from a certain group of people. It’s about principle. How does someone getting married hurt you? No one has yet to explain that without going to the Bible. I feel like no one has a logical or legitimate reason and we need to banish anything and everything that limits the rights of normal citizens who have done nothing to make us take their rights away. Simple one word for it all….hate.

      1. Dave,

        Thanks for your input. And thanks for challenging our perspective. As you likely have already experienced … we’re (Christians of all shapes and sizes) all over the place on homosexuality. Thanks for chiming in and giving us plenty to chew on.

      2. Well the opposite of HATE is Love right? Do you think that LOVE and TOLERANCE are synonymous? I don’t.
        I think that we can disagree with someone and still love them. I think we can say “I think you’re wrong” or “I think this decision could hurt you” and that be in love.
        Love = Involvement….and oftentimes Tolerance can just equal Indifference.
        My ex-coworker Reggie is gay….has been for years. He knows I’m a Christian and has challenged me, and at first seemed to be prodding me for a hateful/discriminatory remark. I always expressed genuine concern for Reggie as a person even though I never recanted my belief in marriage being intended for a man and a woman as the foundation for a healthy family (never used the Bible as an argument).
        On my last day working at Verizon, Reggie walked up, hugged me, and, to my astonishment, with tears in his eyes said “Thank You.” ….”Thanks for what Reg?”….”Thanks because so many people here treated me like garbage but you were always so kind to me.”
        Reggie and I still keep in touch to this day.

      3. Thanks for your thoughts on “tolerance” Joe.

        I’ve always had trouble with the word “tolerance.” In my opinion it’s actually pretty derogatory. When anyone talks about how much they “tolerate” homosexuals I always wonder if they really grasp what they’re saying. You tolerate bad food in an airport. You tolerate mosquitoes on a muggy summer night. Tolerance is, like you said, indifference.

        Christ hasn’t called us to indifference. We probably need to repent of our “tolerance.”

        1. I agree. Tolerance isn’t really a word that is appropriate. I’m a Christian, but I know there is a world outside the Bible. I’m also married. Personally, I hope that everyone on earth achieves equality someday. It’s one of the those impossible dreams, but I hold it dearest of all. I’ve followed Webb since he left Caedmon’s because a friend of mine knew him or something like that and got free CD’s all the time. Since “Wedding Dress” my wife and I love the guy and I hope that this song at least gets people thinking about how they really feel about what is the most important thing…words, sexuality, or the real evils of the word (in this case overlooking what doesn’t directly impact our lives). I appreciate all your comments!!

  9. I’d be interested to hear from folks in the gay and lesbian community. I wonder if their experiences would match what some folks are saying… that Christians by and large are treating them with love and dignity. It’s possible. I don’t know, I’m not them. I’m not seeing the world through their eyes on a daily basis.

    Some of what’s being said is coming from a place deeply entrenched in mainstream Christianity. Which isn’t a criticism. But I think part of the point here is to break down some walls in the conversation. Imaginary or otherwise.

  10. i’m glad to be able to say i’m episcopalian and our bishop in NH is openly gay and all the fundies can just go grumble.

  11. Shane has hit on the head, what I think this conversation comes down to each time… Creation VS. Sin. If it’s sin, then OK, we can look to scripture, and figure out what to do…. If it’s creation though, then how do we handle people who were made this way?

    My personal understanding of free will and choice is that I may very well be born with a bend to a specefic sin based on my dna, my childhood experiences, my family history, etc… but it is still ultimately my choice to act on the temptations I face. Even if you struggle with the temptation of homosexuality, it’s no different than me struggling with alcoholism or lust or any other sin in a persons life. One of the problems is that most people don’t come out of the closet to the world or even those closest around them, until they’ve given up this struggle with sin temptation. They’ve gotten to a place where they openly accept a lifestyle that goes against what God has said. That leads a slippery slope.

    In Campolo’s “20 Hot Potatoes” book from like 20 years ago, he made the separation of the temptation and the act of homosexuality as two different issues. I am inclined to agree. I have had very close, very strong Christian friends struggle with this issue, and come away from it stronger in their faith because they sought Godly wisdom, accountability, and scripture instead of giving into the temptations they knew to be wrong.

    But if you think that people are just born this way… well, calling it a sin at that point just doesn’t seem right. Is there anything else that scripture calls a sin that we believe people are born with instead of having a choice?

    1. Word.
      People can debate all they want about the origins of Homosexuality but the bottom line is that at it’s natural core it is fruitless, non procreative. God only created all living things with the ability to procreate. Therefore that which is in direct contradiction (not those who choose celibacy, or aren’t able to otherwise reproduce do to physical environmental factors) to the natural law of God is sin, just like stealing when your hungry, or verbally assaulting someone when they have opposing ideology is sin.

      The point though is that while scripture spiritually calls for pureness of heart and a life not lived in sin it allows for sin politically. That is Jesus imposed no religious law. Only love sacrifice and selflessness. So it is contrary to the teachings of Christ to politically impose some external form of righteousness. Righteousness comes by understanding the principles of Christ through the Holy Spirit not from externally imposed ideology from man or even, dare I say it, from scripture (or mans understanding of it rather).

      What really matters more than people understanding all the trappings of “Christian Ideology” is that people see the principles of Christ in us. That is that they see us loving our enemy and rejecting religious tyranny, being submissive to the governing powers, feeding the poor, clothing the naked, healing the sick, sharing in the joy and suffering of all humans. Thats what matters more.

      Peace

  12. Apparently this topic is a hot one. As of right now today is this blog’s “busiest” day in history, with over 1,200 views. Of course being the #1 result when you Google “Derek Webb What Matters More” doesn’t hurt either. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    1. Congrats, Shane. Christian media may have snubbed Derek, but I think the bloggosphere might lift him back up. How can you not love the guy? He’s interesting, intelligent, original, passionate and even controversial. He promotes his ideas rather than himself and I think there is strong interest out there for what he’s doing. And just think, 10 years ago a guy like him would probably be forced into playing mainstream Christian music. That or flipping burgers or something.

      1. Well, it was almost ten years ago that Derek split with Caedmon’s for that very reason. In retrospect it was definitely the right thing to do. And I think he’s got enough of a base to keep forging ahead at this point. My only prayer is that he doesn’t give into temptation and feel the need to “outdo” himself each time in terms of the shock value of his message.

        Mockingbird was a tough pill for some to swallow at the time. But the timing of that record was just right. Now we’re back at it again with another issue (or issues, I haven’t heard the whole record yet) whose time has come to be hammered out.

  13. I dont agree with this song, I do agree with him saying we should be a light but reading his lyrics I cannot see how he has made his point effective.
    If believes he knows what the Church should be doing he doesnt have to write a song about it trashing the church, he could write a song encouraging the church to minister to the homosexual population.
    He could start a foundation, he could tour churches and tell them what he think’s Christ would want us to do.

    Another thing is he never talks about the pressure that the church is under to accept homosexuality, this is why this is a complex situation. Many will say they agree and this and that but you better watch out for when you will be put in jail for saying homosexuality is wrong, you will not be able to preach anything against it. Mark my words the church will be persecuted on this issue. We must defend our faith and stand for truth while being a witness of the love of Jesus, the church cannot be silent and be overrun.

    I have been to many churches and I have never heard any hate about homosexuals other than it is a sinful lifestyle.

    “You say you always treat people like you like to be
    I guess you love being hated for your sexuality
    You love when people put words in your mouth
    โ€˜Bout what you believe, make you sound like a freak”

    What does that mean? the Church hates homosexuals and makes them sound like freaks?
    thats a lie from the pit of hell. Or maybe thats the Churches he attends.

    I do agree that as Christians we should show the love of God to all and I think the Church should do more to reach out to those who struggle with their sexual identity without accepting it as the norm.

    God bless,

    Paul!

  14. Hey guys, I’m another one that wandered in thanks to Google.

    I think the discussion here is actually more interesting than the song itself. A friend and I were discussing some of these same issues last night. We were talking about how we have inherited a sin nature from Adam, according to Romans 5 (among others), and that sin isn’t just an action we do, or even an attitude we have, but it is a defining piece of who we are.

    Personalizing that, I am not a “happy person” by nature. I have to work to be joyful. There are numerous, clear commands to be joyful in scripture, scattered all over the Psalms. Yet in action, thought, and in nature, being joyful takes work for me. That doesn’t mean I should try to explain it away as, “That’s just how I am. I was born this way. etc etc” Right? I still have to fight this sin in me. I can’t just give up and give in to it just because it’s part of my “nature.”

    Am I spouting off heresy here? Am I being too judgmental (even towards myself)? Am I a day late to get in this discussion?

    1. absolutely right we are born sinners but that nature has been put to death through Christ in the believer. We are dead to sin but alive in Christ the bible says. I think the problem we as Christians have is our mind, we need to be transformed by renewing our minds and use it to crucify the flesh.

  15. I think the discussion here is actually more interesting than the song itself.

    Thanks, and welcome! Derek Webb would probably consider this conversation “mission accomplished.”

    We were talking about how we have inherited a sin nature from Adam, according to Romans 5 (among others), and that sin isnโ€™t just an action we do, or even an attitude we have, but it is a defining piece of who we are.

    I have a firmly held belief that our “sin nature” is actually a genetic flaw in addition to our attitudes and actions. I haven’t gotten into it much here in the past, but it has surfaced from time to time. So I don’t feel you’re spitting heresy.

    1. Genetic flaw? interesting, do you have a scripture that you use to support that in anyway?

      Does God then change that genetic flaw once we are saved?

    2. I’m interested in where you get the idea that it is somehow genetic as well.

      My post was more of a response to Matt Johnson who seemed to be saying that if homosexuality, or any other sin, was “how you were born” and not a choice you make, then we shouldn’t fight it and, if I am reading his post right, we shouldn’t even call it a sin. I don’t know that I can agree with that.

      And to show that I’m not throwing stones, I bring my own melancholy nature into this discussion. Some are given to anger, or selfishness, or homosexuality. All these things people are born with and to overcome them is a lifelong battle that can, I am learning, only be won by the power of God. I can not make myself happier, no matter what I have tried.

      With that in mind, I am very sympathic to people who have to fight with homosexuality. I know how it feels to realize that who I am is not naturally pleasing to God. But at the same time, that truth was the first step in realizing the beauty, the glory, and the greatness of the Gospel in my life.

      1. I don’t have any unique Scriptures per say. But I think that all the verses that pertain to the inherited sin nature could – in addition to traditional understandings – support the idea. For example Romans 7:22-24.

        I’m not completely married to the idea and am open to the possibility that I’m off my rocker. Maybe “firmly held belief” is an overstatement. Maybe ‘personal theory” would be a more appropriate way to put it.

        But it just kind of started making sense to me a few years back. Why do scientists keep finding genetic links to adultery, gluttony, alcoholism, etc.?

        Could the struggle between spirit and flesh be more literal than we have traditionally thought?

        I don’t know. Like I said, it’s just a personal theory. But to the best of my knowledge I don’t know that Scripture necessarily refutes it. And it doesn’t get us off the hook either, just emphasizes our need for a Savior in that we cannot save ourselves.

        1. As far as genetic links, I dont believe that at all but I do believe in family curses. It only takes one person to break the cycle. I know families that everyone is violent, this is because it is what they see and I believe there is a curse. You can also see that Goldly familes usually have godly offspring,. Youth do wonder at times but always fing their way back to the truth.

  16. And, along the lines of “What Matters More?” I wonder why more preachers and more legislatures aren’t preaching sermons and enacting laws to try and stem the tide of divorce in this country?

    Backing things up to square one, before you even begin to get into the proper way for Christians to deal with sin, it seems that we should think about what sins are really affecting this country, this culture, and this church the most. Just based on plain numbers, in terms of the sanctity of marriage that everyone likes to be a champion of, divorce seems to be an exponentially larger problem in American churches as well as in the country as a whole than homosexuality is.

    1. Every time someone suggests to me that we need to amend the Constitution to ban gay marriage in order to protect the “institution” of marriage I ask them if they’re ready to add heterosexual no-fault divorce to the bill. Since it’s done far more to decay marriage over the past 50 years than allowing a minuscule percentage of gay Americans to marry ever could.

        1. Maybe we need both, but because we dont have one it doesnt mean that we should not fight for the other.

          Believe me Gay Marriage is the devils final frontier. Once this happens it will get very serious. Please read this of what is happening in Mass. follow all the links closely.

          http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/2008/10/22/california-christians-look-what-awaits-you/

          I dont see where all divorce is seen as a sin in the bible though the Lord does say he hates it.

          I do agree that divorce is way to easy so I do think it should be much more difficult but to make it illegal would be unscriptural.

  17. When I look at the issue about homosexuality, I do question the whole “is it a sin” thing. It would seem that the Scriptures speak quite plainly about women as pastors, and yet many denominations have no problem with that. It would seem that the Scriptures speak quite plainly about wives submitting to husbands only, but egalitarians would dispute that. The Bible never condemns multiple wives, never condemns slavery, yet we believe these things are morally wrong. Why?

    And when we start looking at nearly all other issues that are listed in those chapters (as Matt suggested), we find destructive, hurtful behaviors, or those with people who are unable to consent. Comparing a loving relationship between two consenting same-sex adults to a “relationship” between an adult and a child or a human and a dog is unfair because they simply aren’t comparable.

    I’m not saying whether it is or isn’t a sin, but rather saying that the whole idea that it’s “plain” is perhaps not so much the case.

  18. all the homosexuality talk aside…let’s talk about this song.

    the lyrics are ridiculously akin to something an angry freshman in high school would write.

    the music sounds like a nintendo game and moby had a lovechild.

    maybe his label didn’t want to put this out because, well, it’s terrible.

    and i will now retreat back to my cave of silence. i will post again in two weeks.

    1. Jim,

      That’s my favorite comment so far. I like Derek’s other stuff better, but I think that this is the natural progression of an artist. They start running out of clever ideas and start exploring with their sound. Look at the Beatles towards then. Blame it on the drugs, but the truth is they simple wanted to create something new and original. I hope Derek will eventually come full circle and release another House Show type album. But let’s be honest, we’d all probably get bored of him if he never changed it up like this.

      You are right, though. A mainstream artist might record (or at least write) 30 songs and then release 10 on an album, letting cooler minds pick and choose what works best. I’m thinking that Derek probably puts out nearly everything he makes. As a hardcore fan, I like it this way, but I realize that this probably hurts Derek’s appeal to casual fans who’d be better served with a more filterd exposure of Derek.

  19. I am late to this discussion, but I need to say a few things.

    I am a never-married Christian man who is 50 years old and I have fought homosexual temptations since I was 12. With God’s help I have remained celibate instead of actively pursuing gay sex.

    I have been in many churches and I have never experienced blatant hatred or violence. I have, unlike divorced people, experienced social pressure to remain silent about my temptation even though I needed to talk. There were even a few people who appeared to shun me, but it was always done in a subtle way that allowed for “plausible deniability”. I believe that kind of experience is what Derek Webb referred to as hatred. Each incident seems minor, but being subtly shunned and silenced repeatedly can add up to serious hurt after a while.

    I believe Derek’s point is this: we should love those who are tempted to homosexual sin, the same as we love those who are tempted to adultery. We should reach out to gays like we reach out to the divorced. Lovingly call the sinner to repentance.

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